“While submission attempts can produce a finish, they rarely produce damage in the process.” - Damian Treffs

While drinkin some brewskies for my friends birthday at a local Brooklyn bar, an MMA conversation broke out that wound up pouring over into some interesting MMA e mails. Here are the back n forth communications regarding UFC 76 and controversial judging.

On Sep 24, 2007, Damian wrote:
Fernando - It was great fun to talk to you the other day at Richard's b-day - it is rare that I get a chance to talk MMA with someone. Thanks also for the offer to submit something to the site. If I happen to put two or twenty sentences together that I think might interest five or ten other people, I'll send it along.

Next time we end up bumping into each other you'll have to give me your thoughts on Shogun's debut. . .

Talk to you soon,

Damian

On 9/25/07, Fernando wrote:
Damian,

Watched Mauricio Rua fight
never saw him gas in a fight before
I guess marriage and photo shoots with Brazilian models is not a good thing for a star fighter
I think he shot his wad too many times with his hot new wife (lost his chi, qui)
this is huge for Forrest Griffin. Aside from Babalu he's the first person to finish Shogun

Randy Couture made a good point though, the rules are radically different "takes time to adjust"
and Shogun is all legs and knees - but that was not what turned the tides

Guess you were right about Wanderlai Silva helping out.

Thought the Diego Sanchez fight was controversial scoring wise (Cecil Peoples - again)
if it were Japan - he would have won.

I did put my money on Fitch, he's mentally tougher than Diego
talk to you soon

f

On Sep 25, 2007, Damian wrote:
Interesting about the Diego-Fitch fight as it highlights the scoring issues we talked about with the 10pt must system. John Fitch was controlling from the top but did almost no damage whatsoever whereas Diego had an active ground game and was persistently working for the submission - I'm shocked that Fitch pulled out of that guillotine. Incidentally, I had called Fitch to win this but had expected a bit more from him.

Interesting too about Shogun. . .

D

On 9/26/07, Fernando wrote:
Yeah you are right
even though I bet on Fitch
I thought Diego won

Shogun had no energy
that’s the worst possible scenario for any athlete
especially an MMA fighter
seems marriage can affect ones focus
fighting loses the forefront?
he is so much more multidimensional than Forrest

Forrest is tough as nails though and has definitely developed technically,
not just a brawler anymore he is tough mentally
maybe tougher than both the Rua brothers, although they are both great technicians
it hurt to see Shogun loose
PRIDE was so much more exciting a scenario
ropes vs. cage

By the way what do you think of LYOTO ?
in Japan five years ago they said he was "the next Rickson Gracie"

f

On Sep 26, 2007, Damian wrote:
On the UFC scene Lyoto had mythic status as the best non-UFC-PRIDE fighter at 205 in the world. There were very high expectations for him, which simply haven't panned out. He continues to win but he really should be finishing more fights than he is. . .

Talk to you later,

D

On 9/26/07, Fernando wrote:
It’s interesting because Lyoto almost always goes the distance.
He has a very particular stand up and great ground technique.
Did you ever see his fight with Rich Franklin in Inoki Bombaye 2003?
That’s what inspired Rich to go down a weight class
LYOTO is very sneaky and hardly ever gets into trouble. Not a brawler at all, he knows how to keep scoring.

F

On 9/26/07, Fernando wrote:
Damian,
I'm curious what you thought about the Tyson Thiago decision.

F

On Sep 26, 2007, Damian wrote:
One word: ROBBERY!
I had the fight scored 29-28 for Thiago Tavares, giving round one to Tyson Griffin (barely), rounds two and three to Tavares. Often when there is a disputed decision the argument will focus on the difference between judging based on rounds as against judging the fight, i.e., UFC vs. Pride judging. In this case I see a simple case of bad judging rather than bad judging system. That is, Tavares won whether you use the 10-point must system or the Pride system.

Had round three been closer it might have brought the judging system into question but that round saw Tavares begin by stuffing Griffin's takedown, securing his own and transitioning to the Oma Plata and controlling the first minute thirty. The next full minute had Griffin pressing Tavares against the fence, which seems to have been confused in the judge’s mind with a strong offense. After the break Tavares pressed the action, got another takedown and threatened until the bell. All three judges got this one wrong. During this round (Joe) Rogan offers a brief criticism of the scoring system and he is quite right - but it was irrelevant to this fight. To his credit, all the same, he correctly states that the system is geared towards striking as the judge who scored it 30-27 Griffin testifies.

Tavares dominated the second round and I assume the other two judges gave this one to Tavares. The difficulty of this round for the UFC is that while submission attempts can produce a finish, they rarely produce damage in the process. One judge presumably gave Griffin the round for shaking Tavares off his back and landing a punch. That is, escaping a submission with flash counted for more.

That said, however, this was not a case of a bad judging system, just bad judging.

D

On 9/26/07, Fernando wrote:
I thought I was tripping
I definitely agree.

Thiago knew he won!

On Oct 1, 2007, Damian wrote:
Hey Fernando,
About the email exchange, if you think there's enough substance in there to run with, I'll take your word for it. Maybe this can form part of the background for a more sustained reflection on MMA judging. I wonder at this point how many disputed decisions, (as in the case of Tavares in the e-mail) are not a result of a bad-judging system (which takes much of the blame) as opposed to plain bad judging.

Additionally, I wonder the extent to which it is the 10-point must system itself that should be criticized as opposed to the rules within the system that determine who gets the 10 and who gets the 9 or less. For instance, from NJAC .